Betti Manfre: The Twinkie story and other selections from her interview

I promised I would offer transcripts with women. You will all remember Betti, who volunteered at the Confidence Clinic for close to twenty years. She has a gift for metaphor which is exemplified here by bootstraps, rocket ships, and above all, the "Tale of the Twinkies".

(As before, I use three dots(...) to indicate material was left out.)

Anna



Excerpts from an Interview – 03/27/08 Betti Manfre interviewed by Anna Willman


AW: So my first question is, how did you first hear about the Confidence Clinic, how did you become involved?

BM: I first heard about the Confidence Clinic from Martha Young. Uh, we were in a group called, “Beyond War,” together. And um she was talking about volunteering for other things, and I’d never volunteered in Douglas County before, for anything. And she was mentioning that I might like uh working at the Confidence Clinic, in some capacity. And I said, “Well, gee, you know, I can’t even imagine what, what that would be.” And she said, “Oh, I do, well, you just have confidence and you could just go there and share that with the women.” And as I started thinking about it, I thought, “You know what, I could do that.” So I just showed up one day and um, (and I did window displays at the time)...

AW: Where was Confidence Clinic at that point? Was it on Keasey, over on Keasey?

BM: It was Keasey. It was. And um they had a rudimentary program in place at that time. And a big piece of it was uh sewing their own dresses. And so, of course, they had to choose patterns for those dresses. And I started helping them do that. And then I started… I did a lot of resale shopping myself, and so I thought, you know what, we can, we can, I can really share this with them. So, that’s where it all started. And that’s what I started doing.

AW: You started teaching them how to do resale shopping.

BM: Yeah, yeah. I had no goal in mind when I went there. It was just to, uh get involved with something, and especially something involving women. So, that’s how it all started...

AW: Uh-huh, uh-huh. So, um can you just tell me any stories? Anything you want to tell me about things that happened, things that stick out in your mind, any kind of experience with women, you know, with your experience there? Just anything you can think of that, from then until up to today even.

BM: Oh, goodness. Well, I think um one of the most interesting things that developed over the course of my, I think of it more of sharing than teaching, uh at the clinic, was, (and it was totally developed by accident) was my process of getting to know the women better right in the beginning. And as an ice breaker, I often felt that there was a barrier between myself and the women, in the beginning. And I wanted to do away with that barrier as quickly as I could. And it came to me strictly by accident to ask them to share with me something they would never tell a stranger, sometimes never tell anyone. And um, and I started the process by sharing something about myself that uh, that I usually didn’t tell people, that only the people who knew me the most intimately knew.

AW: You use your pinky finger to pick your nose.

BM: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And the only people who’d ever known this about me was my little sister and select boyfriends, not all, but select. And so sharing that immediately tore down the, the, any barrier that might have been in existence. And I often felt that the barrier was created just out of my visual presence. Um, and they realized right away that anybody who would admit to picking their nose couldn’t be all bad. And that, that I was somebody that they could get to know. And so the things that the women shared with me, over the years, were many, and varied, and shocking, and funny, and hilarious. And we almost always had them in common.

AW: And would you share what you did when somebody couldn’t think of something?

BM: Oh. Well, when someone couldn’t think of someone, think of something, um I would say that I would make up something up about them. Or in later years we would invite the group to make something up about them. But in general it was me. And um I could think of some pretty horrible things. And it usually really impressed the other women who hadn’t shared their, their uh (weirdness, is what we called it, “sharing your weirdness”) um, who hadn’t shared their weirdness, yet to think of something.

[laughter]

BM: And usually we would, you know, I’d say, “Well, you know, I bet, everybody raise your hand who does that exact same thing.” And quite a few of the women would raise their hand. And then the woman who was sharing knew that she was amongst kindred spirits, and that was what was really important about, about it. And I also asked them their name when I asked them their weirdness. And that was kind of the guise in which I introduced this actually. It really didn’t help me remember their names.

AW: Well, it did, in the short term, because I sat and watched you do it many a time.

BM: It did in the short term.

AW: And you’d say, “And so you’re Brenda, who, who uh wiggles her toes in bed. And you’re...” You know, and you’d go through this whole list.

BM: Yeah.

AW: And it was always very impressive. And I realize you wouldn’t remember it the next time.

BM: No.

AW: Because it was too short of time to do that.

BM: It was. But it, but it really, I always felt that it really helped um build a bridge between myself and the women. And after that, I really never felt that there were boundaries when I, when I came.

AW: So, I know one of the things that you did for the women is you became their official wardrobe consultant.

BM: I did.

AW: And even after they left the Confidence Clinic, they knew they could call you up if they had a job interview coming, and only $15.00 to spend to get ready for it, or whatever, you’d help them find something.

BM: I did.

AW: Can you, can you talk about some of the times when that happened, without naming names, of course.

BM: Of course. Uh, I think one of the most memorable times it happened, a woman called me (it was probably five or six years after she graduated from clinic) and called me and said that she had a job interview. And that she really didn’t, she had some things she thought she could wear, but she wasn’t really sure, and she had a little bit of money. And so I met with her, at her house, and we looked at what she had, and then we took a small shopping trip. And uh she went shopping and then she went on her job interview.

And I realized that I didn’t have her home phone number. I had really no, kind of no way to follow up with her. And she didn’t tell me that she got the job or not.

And probably two years later, I was, I was shopping with the clinic, actually, with a whole different session of women, of course. And I came out of one of the shops and I was standing on the sidewalk, and this woman walked up to me with a rose in her hand. (This makes me teary.) She walked up to me with a rose in her hand, and she said, “Do you remember me?” And I said, “Well, of course, of course, how did that job ever turn out?” She goes, “Well, I didn’t get that job, but I just used everything you had told me. And I just got my dream job. And I just wanted you to know that I just felt you were right there with me the whole time. And I used all the advice that you gave me. And so I wanted to bring you this flower and thank you.” So that was really a phenomenal moment. It was a great moment.

It, it kind of feels, in some way, that clothing is sort of um, sort of a peripheral, frivolous thing. But it isn’t the clothing themselves, it’s, it’s how it makes you feel. When you feel like you’re put together, and you feel like, you feel confident in that. And that gives you the foothold to go in and really be your best self. So, anyway, I felt like I helped her do that. And I actually feel like I’ve helped quite a few people do that, so it feels good.

AW: Can you tell me um some problems that, that, or challenges that happened while you were at the clinic? Things that were hard for you, or things that you didn’t know quite how to handle, and what did you do? Or any situation like that?

BM: There’s one situation, one woman, especially, that comes back, when you ask me that question, and actually she’s come back several times. Um, and I’ll use her first name because it’s a very common first name. But her name was Debbie. And um she was raised with lots of brothers. And she was a biker. And she very threatening, visually, and physically threatening.

And um she sat across the room from me, directly, and I was in the midst of talking about how, you know, you would put together seven basic pieces of a basic wardrobe. And, and um she got up and walked across the room, which was walking across an open circle in front of quite, all the women. And she was tall, and she walked up to me, and poked my in the chest, fairly hard, and punctuated her words by saying, “Nobody will ever make me wear a blazer.”

And I said, “You’re right. Nobody will ever make you wear a blazer. It’s my job to tell you what might happen if you wear a blazer, but nobody’s ever going to make you do it, including me. Totally up to you.” And she turned around and she went back and she sat down.

It was probably, I don’t know, ten years or more, later, that same thing, I was just in a business somewhere, I think it might have been at Fred Meyer. And, and this woman, Debbie, walked up to me, wearing a blazer. And said, “Man,” and she had quite a rough voice, “Man, I can’t even tell you how many times this blazer has got me in the door, and I don’t ever walk through that door that I don’t think about you.” It was so, it was just… It was cool.

And then it was probably ten years after that, that I saw her again, and she was mowing lawns then. Obviously not wearing a blazer, but she made a point of walking clear across this large yard to come up behind me, and tap me on the back, and hug me.

So, Debbie was a great gift. And that was one of the most challenging situations. I’m not a very large person, and I usually don’t get physically accosted by other women. And women had never been physically accosted in any way, at clinic. And so that was probably the most challenging moment.

AW: So, um one question I’ve asked everybody is “How has your experience at the clinic impacted your life personally?”

BM: [pause] That’s a difficult question.

AW: I didn’t say this was going to be easy.

[laughter]

BM: Um, it’s made me realize the importance of sharing what you have. And it’s helped me to realize one of the most important things about sharing is that when you open your arms to give what you have to someone else, your arms are open to receive what they have to share also. I think that’s the big, was a big piece, for me.

And just helping see people, just seeing people grow is such a, it’s a nurturing, been a nurturing thing for me, all the years. And every, at least once a week, I see a clinic graduate that remembers me. And I won’t… I don’t have money, I won’t build public monuments, I won’t, I won’t leave a lot behind. I don’t have a large family. That’s not a lot of people who will remember me, but there’s a lot of clinic women who will.

AW: I was going to say, that was a wrong statement, there are an awful lot of people who will remember you, Betti, yeah.

BM: And that means a great deal to me. And as I get older it becomes more and more valuable all the time.

AW: So, what do you think is the essence of the clinic experience, what is clinic all about?

BM: Growth. If I had to sum up, sum it up in one single word, I’d say growth.

AW: Of course, this is an oral history. I want you to sum it up in lots of stories, not a single word.

[laughter]

BM: Lots of stories.

AW: But, yeah, go ahead, that’s all right. Can you give me examples of growth, for you, for other people, for however, for the clinic, what?

BM: This is yet another example, it’s a very personalized example because it’s a, it’s a single woman. But clinic is made up of all the single women who have ever gone through it, or taught at it, or experienced it in any peripheral way.

But growth isn’t always what it appears to be. And clinic is great about nurturing the level of growth that each individual participant can handle at the time. It always very much impressed me that the whole curriculum didn’t push anyone to ever grow beyond her capacity at the time, which sometimes was pretty slow. And other times was spectacular. And that there was room for all those levels of growth, in the same room, with all the people participating, and everyone participated in everyone else’s growth. It was phenomenal that way, is phenomenal that way.

And there was one woman, in particular, I know that she struggled with alcohol, and it was part of the reason that she was there. And she went through clinic and made fabulous strides. She was in a difficult relationship. I think she either moved out of that, or solved that. Bottom line, by graduation, I think she was most inspirational, that year, or that session.

And it was several years later that I was walking down the street and saw her walking towards me. And she was a delightful woman, just delightful. And I immediately, my whole spirit just picked up and I thought, “Oh, good I’m going to see.”

And um she saw me and she immediately turned sideways and walked into the nearest store. And I could tell in the way she turned and the way she moved, that she was drunk. And so I thought, “Darn! Oh!” And, and she avoided me, too.

And so I went on about what I was doing and I was about to get into my car, and someone came up behind me and tapped me on the shoulder, and it was her. And so her level of growth, at that point, was yes, she was drinking again, and yes, she probably wasn’t doing as well as we all had hoped that she would. But at least she was able to say, “You know what, I’m not going to walk away from this. I’m going to go, I’m going to find her, and I’m going to say hi.” And that was her level of growth that day. So, I think clinic is fabulous in that way. Absolutely fabulous, that growth is possible for anyone, on any level, at any speed.

AW: So, you’re a very inspirational person, Betti. And you’re being very inspirational right now. And I’m trying also to get all the, I want this history to be a complete history, not just a series of “Isn’t it wonderful? And isn’t it great?”

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: Which it is, wonderful and it is great. Oh, I think so, I stayed there eighteen years; I must have liked it.

BM: Yeah.

AW: So, what, have you seen problems or things that you thought could have been done better, or that, or specific times where you weren’t sure clinic was going to make it, or wasn’t going to work this time, or?

BM: I never thought that clinic wouldn’t make it. I never thought that. Just the strength of all the women who had ever gone through the clinic, I think it has a collective strength. It, it went beyond its own self. I think it still does. Um, there were times when, not just myself, but other people felt that if you ever left the clinic, that would be the end. Um, I think we were really struggling with funding. I know we’re still really struggling with funding. Um, but I know that one person is never the be all, or the end all, of clinic. I mean, I’ve seen, I think four directors, maybe, maybe five, in the years that I’ve been involved with clinic.

...But, at any rate, it became pretty obvious that one person was never going to be the be all or the end all of clinic. There’s no indispensable person.

AW: Amen.

BM: Yeah.

AW: It’s really awful if you’re the one [that] people are thinking is indispensable.

BM: Exactly. You need to go to clinic if you’re thinking that. But, um I think that funding has been a horrendous challenge. Um, and I personally have always thought that clinic was kind of caught between a catch 22 almost, if you will. And I think that might be currently happening today as well. That so much about the physical plant was depressing. Um, the furniture was shoddy.

AW: Not any more, have you seen it? [Note: Victoria Rodriguez the new Program Director has cleaned up and refurbished the premises in a major way.]

BM: Well, let me finish, though. The furniture was shoddy. And everything was way more than second hand. It was tenth hand, and well worn, at that. And um, and the very surroundings were sort of worse than second or third class.

And quite a few of the women, who had come to clinic, would come with the feeling that they were worse than second or third class. And I was never sure if, if it was a good thing that the physical plant was like that because at least those women could relate to it and feel comfortable within it, or if it would have been a better thing to have uh a more uplifting surrounding with everything newer, and yet run the risk that those women, then wouldn’t feel comfortable with that, because then they’d be intimidated by it.

So, I’m very curious to see how the new surroundings will impact that. Um, but there were times when I felt that, that the surroundings, I would have given anything to have been able to drum up the money to improve the surroundings. And I’m so thankful that that’s finally happened. I think, I think it’s a good thing, overall.
...

BM: Yeah. Um, occasionally, well I would usually speak at graduations, and I always felt really honored because it was often the women who would ask me to speak at their graduation. And um it really did feel, to stand on the stage, in front of the seated women behind me, (who I would be with them a good part of that day also because I would be there for the rehearsal of graduation, which was always a raucous, emotional “roller-coastery” event, often with certain really dramatic things happening. There would be, it was, it was quite the day.)... No, but you know, the exuberance was almost uncontrollable. And, but also it was an extremely emotional day because the bonds that would be formed would, I think some of, I think some of those women fell in love with each other, for the first time they ever really fell in love with anything, anyone. And I don’t mean it in a sexual, romantic sense. I mean they really loved each other.

AW: Bonded. They really bonded, yes.

BM: And they were realizing that those bonds were going to change.

AW: Uh-huh.

BM: And while there was a great deal of joy in their joint accomplishment, and their individual accomplishment, there was sadness.

AW: And fear.

BM: And, fear, a great deal of fear. And, you know, any time you get that together, and shake it up, you know. It’s, it’s, it can be an explosive and combustible thing. And so I would be standing on the stage, and here’s all these women, full of all those emotions, immediately behind me. And I swear there were times it would be just like standing at a rocket launching where you’d be there, and the count down would go, and everything would start to shake, and the billows of smoke would come out, and all of a sudden, whshewww! There you go. And that’s exactly how it felt. So I would stand at the podium and I would ask the audience the question, “Okay, how many of you have been at a rocket launching?” And then I’d say what I just said. Because it was very much like that. And I’m still, I’m sure it’s still like that. I’ve not been to a graduation in several years.

AW: Very electric, very electric.

BM: It is. It’s a truly exhilarating event to go to the graduation. So, I think that’s my favorite story.

AW: So, the essence is growth. And what you got out of it, was that sense of people know you. People will remember you for a very long time.

BM: Even more than being personally remembered, really, for me, is...

AW: That their lives changed because of what you did.

BM: Yes, exactly, exactly, even if in the tiniest way.

AW: That’s why they remember you.

BM: It is why they remember me. And, you know, I’ve had women come up to me and they, they don’t remember, some of them don’t remember my name, often they will. They all remember that I pick my nose though. There isn’t a single one of them that don’t remember that.

[laughter]

BM: But they remember me. And they, they will often say, you know, “Oh, well I bought this dress the other day, and I thought, you know, this is not something I would usually buy.” But then I remember you saying, “Just humor me. Go try that on.” So, yeah, if that’s even the tiniest change and even two lives out of, out of all that, I just feel very gratified by that.
.....

BM: ...The thing that strikes me the most about the clinic is what an amazing um contribution it is to our community, to the building of our community. And whenever um the subject of quote unquote “welfare mothers” or um there’s just a bunch of derogatory terms that I won’t even bother to repeat. But uh some of the people, in our community, have an opinion of, I’m going to use a blanket term, “welfare mothers,” um, that just infuriates me. And whenever this comes up in conversation, Confidence Clinic is the card that I lay out on the table.

And most of those people know nothing about the Confidence Clinic, and I’m always encouraging them to donate because these are usually people that have money and influence within our community. And for them to not even know about it and then not even support it, when they can talk about “welfare mothers” in the context that they do just is unconscionable, as far as I’m concerned.

And um, and the contribution that, that Confidence Clinic graduates have made to not only our community, but I’m sure many others. I don’t know how you would even begin to calculate that value. Because it goes out beyond the women, it goes to their children, and their children’s children. I mean clinic has been going long enough now to even probably go to great grandchildren, I don’t know.

AW: I think so.

BM: Yeah.

AW: I think so. Just in the time that I’ve been here I’ve had three generations of people.

BM: Yeah. I specifically remember a set of, of women. We saw the grandmother. We saw the mother. And then we saw the daughter. And I believe the daughter was pregnant when we saw her, too. So, the way that that influence reached, influences reaches into the community, community is just, it’s mind boggling, really.

AW: Well, and it isn’t even just the Confidence Clinic because the Confidence Clinic, P.A.C., which was in, is part of this history because it’s intertwined with Confidence Clinic, and there was really no difference between them for many years.

BM: Right.

AW: Is now UCAN.

BM: Right.

AW: And everything that UCAN does, the food bank, Head Start, uh the Child Care Resource and Referral, the Warm Line, um the Adult and Child Food Program, all the housing units they’ve developed and built and rented out, all the housing counseling, all of the, the energy assistance, all the, you know all the emergency assistance, all that, came from those women, from what they started.

BM: It’s fabulous.

AW: It’s pretty amazing.

BM: It’s really amazing.

AW: When I use the word, “welfare moms,” I see it as a badge of honor.

BM: Absolutely....You know, somebody, not, well, it’s probably three or four years now, that asking me, you know, about programs in our area for welfare moms. And um they had a daughter that they were at the point, quite ashamed of actually, because she was on welfare and what could they do. And I said, “You know, you ought to send her to the Confidence Clinic. It’s an amazing program. Um, their success rate is phenomenal, and the growth that happens there is... Personally I think every woman should go through the Confidence Clinic, and I just wish there was a program like that for men, too.” And um she said, “Well, you know what, I think all those women should just learn to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.” And I said,

AW: That’s what they are doing.

BM: I said, “Did you ever consider the fact that there are people born without boots, and that there’s boots for them at the Confidence Clinic.” And she said, “Well, I never thought about that, that somebody might be born without boots.” I said, “Maybe you ought to go down. Sit in on a session, take a look,” because man, I mean a woman can walk in there barefoot and end up strutting out there in the finest shoes she’s ever seen, and she made them herself. So, that’s what they do. That’s what we do. That’s what you do. That’s what they’re still doing. And I’m just hoping that with all the challenges, and funding, and um the current market climate, and all the things that are going on, that no matter what, that this program can keep moving forward...

I can’t think of anything else, Anna.

AW: Betti Manfre with a loss for words.

BM: [laughs] I didn’t say a loss for words. I had a loss for thoughts. I couldn’t think of anything else.

AW: ...One thing that I heard you say just now, in terms of how people, how people see the clinic, one thing that I hope will come from this is that people will start feeling proud of having been to the clinic, instead of having it still be part of something that there’s some embarrassment or shame about. And, and you were talking about one woman who said, “Well, she needs to go to the clinic.” That’s almost like it’s a put down to say that to somebody. And...I hear clinic women saying that all the time. And you’re not the only one who does that, you know. And it’s like, “There’s something wrong with you, so you need to go to the clinic and get fixed.” And the reality is that the clinic is a place of wonderfully powerful accomplished women who have survived under incredible odds. And they’re going to the clinic to learn how to go beyond that, that surviving piece. But they don’t, they don’t need to go to the clinic. They get to go to the clinic.

BM: Right.

AW: And there’s something about that, and yet, you know, many of us, I mean I’m sure I’ve used that phrase, too.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: ...It’s just, it’s one of the things...I’m hoping that will come out of this, is a book and maybe a video tape, that can combat that sense of the clinic is something that you do because there’s something wrong with you. But that it’s something you do because you want an opportunity to grow, which is what you were just talking about.

BM: Uh-huh, but sometimes…

AW: Boy, I sure stayed eighteen years. I, did you know that they let me graduate with them?

BM: Oh, cool. Oh, that’s great.

AW: I got to walk across the stage. I got a certificate.

BM: Oh, that’s great.

AW: And the academic certificate said, “Academic review, and review, and review, and review.”

[laughter]

AW: And I asked the women if I could, and they said, “yes,” and I was so pleased.

BM: That is great! That is great.

AW: Finally, I got to finish. I finally got to graduate. After eighteen years, I finally made it!

BM: Okay, so I’m going to ask you a question, then.

AW: Okay.

BM: Why did you stay that long?

AW: I’d still be there. Um, I stayed because it fit me. Because I was good at it, because it made me feel good, because every morning I woke up and I could hardly wait to get to work.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: I stayed because it is a place of love and acceptance, and it is, we created, at the Confidence Clinic, a world that all my life I was trying to create. And we had it small, but we had it.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: It was a place where you could go and not be judged. It was a place where you could go and try new things. It was a place where you could go and fall flat on your face, and nobody thought the less of you for it. They might laugh, but they’d also pick you up, and brush you off, and say, “Good for you!”

BM: Uh-huh, uh-huh. So, then why did you leave?

AW: Because I have to um, it was my responsibility to care about um the continuity of the clinic.

BM: Oh.

AW: And it was time to find somebody who could carry it forward. I hope I have.

BM: I hope so.

AW: And in any case, if I haven’t, we’re going to have this video and this book that people who want to get back to basics can.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: And it’ll, it’ll capture all of the essence of clinic from the beginning.

BM: Are you going to put together, I’ve often wondered if there is in existence somewhere, an actual written curriculum?

AW: It, the curriculum changes all the time, and curriculum and it’s really interesting…

BM: But it has a basis though. It has a foundation.

AW: We have some basic stuff that that we’ve handed on. And, and actually looking at the very first session there’s some stuff that was done in the very first session when they were just making it up, that we still do today.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: Um, and, and the curriculum piece that it’s done with is almost identical. Um, there’s some other pieces that have been added during my time, pieces that were added during people’s time before me. Um, and the reality is, is that all, the curriculum we have is wonderful.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: And um, and we never get through it all anyway. There’s certain basic pieces we always do, but the rest is just whatever this particular group needs...

BM: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

AW: Um, and the reality is, it doesn’t matter what the curriculum is, what matters is that non-judgmental, loving, supportive, mutual, uh we all learn from each other, um each woman makes her own choices about what she wants to do, what she wants to work on, how she wants to grow, what pace she wants to grow. All of that stuff is her decision and nobody else’s.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: That’s what makes clinic, clinic. A specific curriculum piece, you could have the best curriculum in the world and present it in a way that nobody can get it.

BM: Oh, right, of course.

AW: And you can have a crummy curriculum piece, but if you hand it over to the women, they’ll make it into something magical.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: So, yeah, we’ve got a great curriculum.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: And that’s not what clinic’s about.

BM: Yeah.

AW: And yeah, I mean there’s, there’s, there’s filing cabinets and notebooks full of curriculum that we have used with some success. And each coordinator has taken it and tweaked it in her own direction, and that will happen indefinitely.

BM: Of course it will. Well, yeah, I mean it is such a personalized, highly personalized job, I feel. You know, I’ve watched it change over the years, depending on who was there.

AW: Who was doing it?

BM: Yeah, change, and shift, and morph into other things.

AW: And none of that matters.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: None of that matters as long as the basic element of, of mutuality, respect, um being truthful, um being trustworthy, confidentiality, and above all the woman makes her own decisions.

BM: Uh-huh.

AW: We create opportunities. We create opportunities for success. We create opportunities from experiences, and it’s up to them to decide whether to take advantage of those opportunities.

BM: Uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah.

AW: Because they may not be right for everybody.

BM: Well, right. And I, yeah, and I changed the, or tried to change the whole wardrobe piece of that as we went through too. I mean it shifted quite a bit from being fairly (not exactly rigid, but rigid - um, no “definite”), being pretty definite to, I really sifted it towards trying to think about what these women might actually want to do, where they might take their career path, if that’s what they want to do. Um, and how that would require different wardrobe things, and different expectations of what they were going to do on a daily, on a daily basis.

The one thing though that, that I felt was important through the whole thing... is how there are certain expectations that the world has though, and if you, if you want to change, you have to participate to a certain degree... I mean, yes, you can make the choice to never get out of your bathrobe, but that’s also the choice to never have a job, unless you can find a job working at home all the time.

AW: And even then you usually have to get out of your home to get the job.

BM: Yes, you do. And so, you know, we did have times when the women would stand right up and say, “I shouldn’t have to do that.” “Well, that’s right, you shouldn’t. But you do live on planet earth, in 2008.”

AW: And they often would say that about the length of their skirt, “I ought to be able to wear as short of skirt as I want to.”

BM: Well, remember the Twinkie story?

[laughter]

BM: Actually, that one, I hear that one a lot still from the women. They’ll tell me, “I’ll never forget the Twinkie story. I never go in a bar.”

AW: So, tell the Twinkie story.

BM: … I would tell the Twinkie story when a woman would say things to me like um, “But I’m not that kind of girl! Yeah, I like to wear low cut clothes, and I like to wear short skirts, and I like to wear things tight, but I’m not that kind of girl.”

And so I would tell the story about there’s a man, and he’s sitting in his recliner, and he’s watching T.V., and uh he gets this mad urge for Twinkies. He has to have a Twinkie and he has to have a Twinkie right now. But he really doesn’t want to go to the store, so he hems and he haws, and finally he makes himself do it.

Okay, he gets up, he goes out to the truck, he gets in. He drives to the store, knows right where the store is, walks into the store, knows right where the Twinkies are. He can see them from clear down the isle. The red banner, he can see that twinkly cellophane, he’s ready. Goes right up, grabs the Twinkies. “Yeah, they’re soft, and the wrapper’s crunchy.” And it’s all.. He knows it’s Twinkies. So he takes it up and he pays for it, and now he’s got a real dilemma. He gets into the truck, whether to eat the Twinkies right there in the truck, or to take them home.

So, he decides to wait. He takes them home. He reaches down in the bag, he looks in there, he knows exactly that those are Twinkies, it says Twinkies right on it, so he rips it open, and inside the wrapper there’s an English muffin.

And that’s what happens when you dress like a Twinkie, but you don’t want to be thought of like that. And you got the Twinkie walk, and you got the Twinkie hair toss, and you got the whole Twinkie act. But if you don’t want to be treated like a Twinkie, then don’t wear the wrapper. And that’s the Twinkie story.